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	<title>Comments on: Threshold</title>
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	<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/07/threshold/</link>
	<description>Inspired 4e Design</description>
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		<title>By: gamefiend</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/07/threshold/comment-page-1/#comment-4954</link>
		<dc:creator>gamefiend</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 00:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=1695#comment-4954</guid>
		<description>Hello!

@grant hopefully you can see where I&#039;ve begun to answer your points with the movement and range system.  I still need to build upon this though.


@bartoneus the main assumption of traps in 4e though is that space is discrete and there is a chance to walk outside or around the trap somehow.  In abstracting those zones, we&#039;ve abstracted that sense of space.  The hazard check is a quick way to deal with that without adding a lot of complexity.

@alexander the AOE for bursts and blasts are purposely abstracted.  The aim for threshold is elegance and speed, not precision.  Each element that you incroporate from the grid-based system of 4e adds more elegance-stealing complexity from the system.  For a better treatment of space (i.e. a more accurate translation of the grid) see my &lt;a href=&quot;http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2009/12/fluid-4e-gridless-combat/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Fluid&lt;/a&gt; rules.  I think they address both your points but add more complexity than many want to deal with whne leaving the grid behind.

Similarly, shifts and forced movement have less impact in this system.  They don&#039;t do much mechanically, but this is again intentional.  Threshold is not meant to be a replacement for grid-based combat but a cinematic supplement for certain cases.

I hope I didn&#039;t sound defensive!  I just wanted to clarify my goals and intents a little more.  I do think you might like fluid a bit more.  Check it out and let me know!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello!</p>
<p>@grant hopefully you can see where I&#8217;ve begun to answer your points with the movement and range system.  I still need to build upon this though.</p>
<p>@bartoneus the main assumption of traps in 4e though is that space is discrete and there is a chance to walk outside or around the trap somehow.  In abstracting those zones, we&#8217;ve abstracted that sense of space.  The hazard check is a quick way to deal with that without adding a lot of complexity.</p>
<p>@alexander the AOE for bursts and blasts are purposely abstracted.  The aim for threshold is elegance and speed, not precision.  Each element that you incroporate from the grid-based system of 4e adds more elegance-stealing complexity from the system.  For a better treatment of space (i.e. a more accurate translation of the grid) see my <a href="http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2009/12/fluid-4e-gridless-combat/" rel="nofollow">Fluid</a> rules.  I think they address both your points but add more complexity than many want to deal with whne leaving the grid behind.</p>
<p>Similarly, shifts and forced movement have less impact in this system.  They don&#8217;t do much mechanically, but this is again intentional.  Threshold is not meant to be a replacement for grid-based combat but a cinematic supplement for certain cases.</p>
<p>I hope I didn&#8217;t sound defensive!  I just wanted to clarify my goals and intents a little more.  I do think you might like fluid a bit more.  Check it out and let me know!</p>
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		<title>By: Alexander Mont</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/07/threshold/comment-page-1/#comment-4948</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander Mont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 19:22:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=1695#comment-4948</guid>
		<description>Some more comments:

1. The AoE hit chart seems a bit off. Remember that a &quot;Burst N&quot; is a 2N+1 by 2N+1 square area, while a &quot;Blast N&quot; is only an N by N square area. That means a Burst 1 is the same area as a Blast 3, a Burst 2 is the same as a Blast 5, a Burst 3 is the same as a Blast 7, etc. So the chart should probably be adjusted to reflect that. Or is the discrepancy intentional?

2. How do pushes, pulls, slides, and shifts work? How does flanking work? Is there any benefit to having a reach weapon in this system?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some more comments:</p>
<p>1. The AoE hit chart seems a bit off. Remember that a &#8220;Burst N&#8221; is a 2N+1 by 2N+1 square area, while a &#8220;Blast N&#8221; is only an N by N square area. That means a Burst 1 is the same area as a Blast 3, a Burst 2 is the same as a Blast 5, a Burst 3 is the same as a Blast 7, etc. So the chart should probably be adjusted to reflect that. Or is the discrepancy intentional?</p>
<p>2. How do pushes, pulls, slides, and shifts work? How does flanking work? Is there any benefit to having a reach weapon in this system?</p>
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		<title>By: Critical Bits for the week ending 2010-07-18 : Critical Hits</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/07/threshold/comment-page-1/#comment-4902</link>
		<dc:creator>Critical Bits for the week ending 2010-07-18 : Critical Hits</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jul 2010 19:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=1695#comment-4902</guid>
		<description>[...] @gamefiend: New blog post: Threshold http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/07/threshold/ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] @gamefiend: New blog post: Threshold <a href="http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/07/threshold/" rel="nofollow">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/07/threshold/</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bartoneus</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/07/threshold/comment-page-1/#comment-4823</link>
		<dc:creator>Bartoneus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:45:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=1695#comment-4823</guid>
		<description>The things I&#039;d like to see revised / changed are when new ideas are introduced that aren&#039;t necessarily needed: &quot;make a hazard check&quot; - why is there a new hazard check idea when the hazard can just be a plain old trap that attacks the PC with minimal change from the base 4E rules? 

Much like Dave I&#039;d like to see this simplified a bit more, but I like what you&#039;ve got going here so far!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The things I&#8217;d like to see revised / changed are when new ideas are introduced that aren&#8217;t necessarily needed: &#8220;make a hazard check&#8221; &#8211; why is there a new hazard check idea when the hazard can just be a plain old trap that attacks the PC with minimal change from the base 4E rules? </p>
<p>Much like Dave I&#8217;d like to see this simplified a bit more, but I like what you&#8217;ve got going here so far!</p>
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		<title>By: Grant Howitt</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/07/threshold/comment-page-1/#comment-4819</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant Howitt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 10:39:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=1695#comment-4819</guid>
		<description>I thought that too - mid and short-range blasters (&#039;locks, sorcs etc) are going to find it difficult to work properly without pulling AoE.

One suggestion could be that &quot;Back Away&quot; is a manuever that means you&#039;re immune to AoE that round, but it&#039;s assumed that in following rounds any enemies in your Zone pursue and stand next to you again. You can&#039;t Back Away in Zones made of challenging terrain, or if a creature has made an Advantageous Manuever to get combat advantage against you.

Aside from that, this seems like an interesting idea and one that I could see myself adopting. It seems to have a lot of similarities with WFRP 3, and if you haven&#039;t had a look at that, I&#039;d recommend that you do - their range system is elegant and interesting.

I also like the idea of having different effects in different zones - say, in the &quot;Torture Chamber&quot; zone there&#039;s a spiked iron maiden that inflicts an extra 2D8 damage on a crit as the attacker shoves their victim into it (or they can try and bullrush people into it, too). It means that terrain can still have a good effect on combat, but limits the amount of time spent manuvering into position.

I reckon that this will give fights the capacity to take place across a &quot;front&quot; rather than in 10x10 room, which is always good. Perhaps the Torture chamber is linked to a ritual dias (+2 damage to arcane attacks) and a prison (on a crit, emaciated prisoners will grab hold of your opponent and Restrain them, save ends). WOuld be fun to have a varied arena that doesn&#039;t feel cluttered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought that too &#8211; mid and short-range blasters (&#8216;locks, sorcs etc) are going to find it difficult to work properly without pulling AoE.</p>
<p>One suggestion could be that &#8220;Back Away&#8221; is a manuever that means you&#8217;re immune to AoE that round, but it&#8217;s assumed that in following rounds any enemies in your Zone pursue and stand next to you again. You can&#8217;t Back Away in Zones made of challenging terrain, or if a creature has made an Advantageous Manuever to get combat advantage against you.</p>
<p>Aside from that, this seems like an interesting idea and one that I could see myself adopting. It seems to have a lot of similarities with WFRP 3, and if you haven&#8217;t had a look at that, I&#8217;d recommend that you do &#8211; their range system is elegant and interesting.</p>
<p>I also like the idea of having different effects in different zones &#8211; say, in the &#8220;Torture Chamber&#8221; zone there&#8217;s a spiked iron maiden that inflicts an extra 2D8 damage on a crit as the attacker shoves their victim into it (or they can try and bullrush people into it, too). It means that terrain can still have a good effect on combat, but limits the amount of time spent manuvering into position.</p>
<p>I reckon that this will give fights the capacity to take place across a &#8220;front&#8221; rather than in 10&#215;10 room, which is always good. Perhaps the Torture chamber is linked to a ritual dias (+2 damage to arcane attacks) and a prison (on a crit, emaciated prisoners will grab hold of your opponent and Restrain them, save ends). WOuld be fun to have a varied arena that doesn&#8217;t feel cluttered.</p>
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		<title>By: gamefiend</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/07/threshold/comment-page-1/#comment-4812</link>
		<dc:creator>gamefiend</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 18:06:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=1695#comment-4812</guid>
		<description>@Dave as I have come to expect, some sharp changes.  I will dwell on this and get some revisions out soon.  Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Dave as I have come to expect, some sharp changes.  I will dwell on this and get some revisions out soon.  Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Dave T. Game</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/07/threshold/comment-page-1/#comment-4809</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave T. Game</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:51:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=1695#comment-4809</guid>
		<description>This is awesome (was there any doubt?) but I would love to see some simplification. In a gridless system (especially one trying to be faster than Fluid), I want to ignore numerical values for speed altogether. To me, it&#039;s easier to rewrite a few conditions and situations to accommodate differing move speeds that still have to calculate a number, especially one that has to be calculated from round to round. For instance, I could see Slowed just meaning that you can&#039;t move from your zone, but can still engage any enemy in your zone in melee, where Immobilized means you can only engage an enemy of the DM&#039;s choice in melee and can&#039;t move zones. That would simplify your different move maneuvers as well. Lower/High speed values could just give a bonus to a check. And so on.  

I do love the implications of zone effects (hazards and hindrances- those are going to matter way more than on a grid) and the burst/blast system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is awesome (was there any doubt?) but I would love to see some simplification. In a gridless system (especially one trying to be faster than Fluid), I want to ignore numerical values for speed altogether. To me, it&#8217;s easier to rewrite a few conditions and situations to accommodate differing move speeds that still have to calculate a number, especially one that has to be calculated from round to round. For instance, I could see Slowed just meaning that you can&#8217;t move from your zone, but can still engage any enemy in your zone in melee, where Immobilized means you can only engage an enemy of the DM&#8217;s choice in melee and can&#8217;t move zones. That would simplify your different move maneuvers as well. Lower/High speed values could just give a bonus to a check. And so on.  </p>
<p>I do love the implications of zone effects (hazards and hindrances- those are going to matter way more than on a grid) and the burst/blast system.</p>
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		<title>By: gamefiend</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/07/threshold/comment-page-1/#comment-4808</link>
		<dc:creator>gamefiend</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=1695#comment-4808</guid>
		<description>I have had that same thought.  I&#039;m not sure what to do with it right now, but I will work on something for sure.  Glad you liked, and hope you&#039;ll share comments after you&#039;ve tried it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have had that same thought.  I&#8217;m not sure what to do with it right now, but I will work on something for sure.  Glad you liked, and hope you&#8217;ll share comments after you&#8217;ve tried it!</p>
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		<title>By: Vincent Blackrose</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/07/threshold/comment-page-1/#comment-4807</link>
		<dc:creator>Vincent Blackrose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:29:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=1695#comment-4807</guid>
		<description>I find this system rather interesting as well and can&#039;t wait to try it with my group. One small comment, just that arcane classes who rely on intelligence seem a little disadvantaged in terms of ranged attacks causing opportunity. I play a wizard and normally if a creature gets up in my face I can use a move to shift away and attack fully. In this though it seems that would not work and that a full turn would be required to just get away (converting a standard to a move), leaving the character with no attack while a monster could just use a full movement to get out of the zone. I mostly worry about this since usually acrobatics and athletics are not as good of stats for a arcane. Maybe there&#039;s some caveat that I&#039;m not quite reading, just the mage in me has to wonder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find this system rather interesting as well and can&#8217;t wait to try it with my group. One small comment, just that arcane classes who rely on intelligence seem a little disadvantaged in terms of ranged attacks causing opportunity. I play a wizard and normally if a creature gets up in my face I can use a move to shift away and attack fully. In this though it seems that would not work and that a full turn would be required to just get away (converting a standard to a move), leaving the character with no attack while a monster could just use a full movement to get out of the zone. I mostly worry about this since usually acrobatics and athletics are not as good of stats for a arcane. Maybe there&#8217;s some caveat that I&#8217;m not quite reading, just the mage in me has to wonder.</p>
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		<title>By: gamefiend</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/07/threshold/comment-page-1/#comment-4804</link>
		<dc:creator>gamefiend</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:16:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=1695#comment-4804</guid>
		<description>Thanks for taking your time! :)  Will eagerly await your commentary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for taking your time! <img src='http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   Will eagerly await your commentary.</p>
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