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	<title>Comments on: Retrain, Restat, Recycle</title>
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	<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2009/07/retrain-restat-recycle/</link>
	<description>Inspired 4e Design</description>
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		<title>By: Hollow</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2009/07/retrain-restat-recycle/comment-page-1/#comment-6706</link>
		<dc:creator>Hollow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Nov 2010 20:52:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=906#comment-6706</guid>
		<description>Personally, I don&#039;t like these suggestions at all. The point of having a character is making decisions which shape WHO the character IS as an individual.

If you&#039;re about to enter a quest which deals heavily with monster X, but your player picked a lot of skills that deal with monster Y, you shouldn&#039;t allow them to just change abilities mid-stream. That&#039;s lame.

If you make a mistake that you&#039;re not happy with... deal with it. You should be able to roleplay your choices. In fact, sometimes... being forced to continue a particular direction with a character challenges the player to incorporate that facet of their story and often enlightens the player (read: opens their mind) to defining a new aspect to roleplay that they wouldn&#039;t have thought of otherwise.

I like things set in stone. I like randomization. Sometimes it&#039;s more fun to be at a disadvantage (skill-selection wise) so that when you&#039;re successful you feel like you&#039;ve made a greater accomplishment.

If you showed me a list of skills and I built a character to level 10 however I wanted... I&#039;d usually pick several archetypes that I&#039;ve already built in the past. It&#039;s boring; a character can&#039;t help but pick the min-max options for any particular character type. In 3rd edition, if you had a choice between Color Spray and Burning Hands, 8/10 times you&#039;d pick the damage-dealer, right? Yet, when you&#039;re granted skills and asked to make a character based around them... that&#039;s when it becomes fun again and a challenge.

Letting a player swap skills like it was a sandbox game turns every class into a mush of predictability; they&#039;ll always take advantage of every situation... ie. little challenge and no definition for their character.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I don&#8217;t like these suggestions at all. The point of having a character is making decisions which shape WHO the character IS as an individual.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re about to enter a quest which deals heavily with monster X, but your player picked a lot of skills that deal with monster Y, you shouldn&#8217;t allow them to just change abilities mid-stream. That&#8217;s lame.</p>
<p>If you make a mistake that you&#8217;re not happy with&#8230; deal with it. You should be able to roleplay your choices. In fact, sometimes&#8230; being forced to continue a particular direction with a character challenges the player to incorporate that facet of their story and often enlightens the player (read: opens their mind) to defining a new aspect to roleplay that they wouldn&#8217;t have thought of otherwise.</p>
<p>I like things set in stone. I like randomization. Sometimes it&#8217;s more fun to be at a disadvantage (skill-selection wise) so that when you&#8217;re successful you feel like you&#8217;ve made a greater accomplishment.</p>
<p>If you showed me a list of skills and I built a character to level 10 however I wanted&#8230; I&#8217;d usually pick several archetypes that I&#8217;ve already built in the past. It&#8217;s boring; a character can&#8217;t help but pick the min-max options for any particular character type. In 3rd edition, if you had a choice between Color Spray and Burning Hands, 8/10 times you&#8217;d pick the damage-dealer, right? Yet, when you&#8217;re granted skills and asked to make a character based around them&#8230; that&#8217;s when it becomes fun again and a challenge.</p>
<p>Letting a player swap skills like it was a sandbox game turns every class into a mush of predictability; they&#8217;ll always take advantage of every situation&#8230; ie. little challenge and no definition for their character.</p>
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		<title>By: Ameron</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2009/07/retrain-restat-recycle/comment-page-1/#comment-2237</link>
		<dc:creator>Ameron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 12:33:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=906#comment-2237</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m going to come down on the other side of this argument. I absolutely agree with the RAR. I like the concept of retraining, but I feel that there should be some in-game mechanic for allowing it. If you take a feat or power that you end up not using or not liking then you can swap it out the next time the story deems it appropriate. Just because you level up in the middle of a dungeon doesn’t mean that you can forget everything you know about Nature and suddenly gain an aptitude for Thievery. But if the PCs have a few weeks of down time in the near-by town, then this change makes more sense.

I know people will say that my stern interpretation of this rule takes some of the fun out of D&amp;D, but hear me out. I&#039;ve found that many PCs want to swap out powers that they just took before they can really see how useful they are. If you&#039;ve got a power that is kick-ass vs undead but go two levels without fighting a single skeleton then you&#039;ll think the power is useless. However, the very first time you fight undead you&#039;ll suddenly realize how cool it really is.

I guess the other point I&#039;m trying to make is that training in a skill, feat or class power takes time. You shouldn&#039;t just wake up one morning after leveling and be able to make that kind of change on the fly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to come down on the other side of this argument. I absolutely agree with the RAR. I like the concept of retraining, but I feel that there should be some in-game mechanic for allowing it. If you take a feat or power that you end up not using or not liking then you can swap it out the next time the story deems it appropriate. Just because you level up in the middle of a dungeon doesn’t mean that you can forget everything you know about Nature and suddenly gain an aptitude for Thievery. But if the PCs have a few weeks of down time in the near-by town, then this change makes more sense.</p>
<p>I know people will say that my stern interpretation of this rule takes some of the fun out of D&amp;D, but hear me out. I&#8217;ve found that many PCs want to swap out powers that they just took before they can really see how useful they are. If you&#8217;ve got a power that is kick-ass vs undead but go two levels without fighting a single skeleton then you&#8217;ll think the power is useless. However, the very first time you fight undead you&#8217;ll suddenly realize how cool it really is.</p>
<p>I guess the other point I&#8217;m trying to make is that training in a skill, feat or class power takes time. You shouldn&#8217;t just wake up one morning after leveling and be able to make that kind of change on the fly.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Brady</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2009/07/retrain-restat-recycle/comment-page-1/#comment-2235</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Brady</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 12:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=906#comment-2235</guid>
		<description>The &quot;rule&quot; in my game is a) you can swap a new power or feat at the end of any session.  You cannot change the at-will you have been using for the past 5 months because you are tired of it, but you can change out the feat you grabbed when you leveled up recently.  b)  You can swap out a power and a feat anytime WotC comes out with a new resource, but it must be for something in that resource.  Like the new at-will in the Divine Power book, you can swap it at the end of the session.  c) You can also just try and convince me that something about a power/feat/skill was taken without complete knowledge.  I try to limit this, because I think it is important for players to spend some time learning and making the right choices, but everyone makes mistakes and the rules are pretty complex.  We have had this happen a couple of times now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;rule&#8221; in my game is a) you can swap a new power or feat at the end of any session.  You cannot change the at-will you have been using for the past 5 months because you are tired of it, but you can change out the feat you grabbed when you leveled up recently.  b)  You can swap out a power and a feat anytime WotC comes out with a new resource, but it must be for something in that resource.  Like the new at-will in the Divine Power book, you can swap it at the end of the session.  c) You can also just try and convince me that something about a power/feat/skill was taken without complete knowledge.  I try to limit this, because I think it is important for players to spend some time learning and making the right choices, but everyone makes mistakes and the rules are pretty complex.  We have had this happen a couple of times now.</p>
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		<title>By: gamefiend</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2009/07/retrain-restat-recycle/comment-page-1/#comment-2232</link>
		<dc:creator>gamefiend</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=906#comment-2232</guid>
		<description>see, that&#039;s the line I would draw.  I wouldn&#039;t want the PCs swapping out characters because it would be impossible to get a good story around them. Powers don&#039;t really define *character* --just a character&#039;s capabilities.  But swapping characters changes your whole story.  

I&#039;m ok with retraining because I am usually more abreast of the rules than my players, but less-obsessed GMs probably do need to limit how much swapping they allow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>see, that&#8217;s the line I would draw.  I wouldn&#8217;t want the PCs swapping out characters because it would be impossible to get a good story around them. Powers don&#8217;t really define *character* &#8211;just a character&#8217;s capabilities.  But swapping characters changes your whole story.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m ok with retraining because I am usually more abreast of the rules than my players, but less-obsessed GMs probably do need to limit how much swapping they allow.</p>
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		<title>By: ethan</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2009/07/retrain-restat-recycle/comment-page-1/#comment-2231</link>
		<dc:creator>ethan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 19:01:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=906#comment-2231</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re absolutely right. It depends on the group, but everyone seems to house rule retraining, which makes me think the rules are too restrictive as written.

I think loose restrictions are good for a group that doesn&#039;t meet often. For a group that meets quite frequently, the opportunity to retrain will come up more often and may not need to be adjusted.

On a completely unrelated note, how do you guys feel about players having alternate characters rolled and swapping them out occasionally? Is it worthwhile to let players experiment with new classes, or does it destroy the emotional attachment to just one character?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re absolutely right. It depends on the group, but everyone seems to house rule retraining, which makes me think the rules are too restrictive as written.</p>
<p>I think loose restrictions are good for a group that doesn&#8217;t meet often. For a group that meets quite frequently, the opportunity to retrain will come up more often and may not need to be adjusted.</p>
<p>On a completely unrelated note, how do you guys feel about players having alternate characters rolled and swapping them out occasionally? Is it worthwhile to let players experiment with new classes, or does it destroy the emotional attachment to just one character?</p>
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		<title>By: Icosahedrophilia</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2009/07/retrain-restat-recycle/comment-page-1/#comment-2230</link>
		<dc:creator>Icosahedrophilia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 18:35:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=906#comment-2230</guid>
		<description>I find myself split on this. I would like to encourage experimentation … but I have a hard enough time tracking/remembering the PCs&#039; capabilities. I actually think one of my players has applied the retraining rules far more liberally than written, and it&#039;s a bit dizzying. It&#039;s also quite a letdown to build an adventure to incorporate elements that you think will let certain characters shine—only to have that player show up having retrained the character out of those elements!

Obviously (to me), each gaming group should do what works best for that particular group. I&#039;m personally happy with the rules as written. At the very least, they offer players a lot more flexibility than 3.x did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find myself split on this. I would like to encourage experimentation … but I have a hard enough time tracking/remembering the PCs&#8217; capabilities. I actually think one of my players has applied the retraining rules far more liberally than written, and it&#8217;s a bit dizzying. It&#8217;s also quite a letdown to build an adventure to incorporate elements that you think will let certain characters shine—only to have that player show up having retrained the character out of those elements!</p>
<p>Obviously (to me), each gaming group should do what works best for that particular group. I&#8217;m personally happy with the rules as written. At the very least, they offer players a lot more flexibility than 3.x did.</p>
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		<title>By: gamefiend</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2009/07/retrain-restat-recycle/comment-page-1/#comment-2229</link>
		<dc:creator>gamefiend</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 18:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=906#comment-2229</guid>
		<description>I pretty much rule that players can swap out/rebuild whenever all the way up to paragon. Especially for people learning the game, this will help them experiment with what they want and learn how powers interact.  My PCs are getting pretty awesome with the teamwork and roles now as a result.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I pretty much rule that players can swap out/rebuild whenever all the way up to paragon. Especially for people learning the game, this will help them experiment with what they want and learn how powers interact.  My PCs are getting pretty awesome with the teamwork and roles now as a result.</p>
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		<title>By: Vanphil</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2009/07/retrain-restat-recycle/comment-page-1/#comment-2228</link>
		<dc:creator>Vanphil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:43:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=906#comment-2228</guid>
		<description>I usually let my players change &quot;one of everything&quot; when they level up when playing 4E: 1 daily power, 1 &quot;other&quot; power (at will, encounter, utility), 1 feat AND 1 skill.
For the first 4-5 levels, i also let them swap some powers if I agree that are not fit for the PC.

It has no sense under narrative and storyline point of view, but it really works for my group.
The whole level mechanism doesn&#039;t make sense  anyway, so I just don&#039;t mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I usually let my players change &#8220;one of everything&#8221; when they level up when playing 4E: 1 daily power, 1 &#8220;other&#8221; power (at will, encounter, utility), 1 feat AND 1 skill.<br />
For the first 4-5 levels, i also let them swap some powers if I agree that are not fit for the PC.</p>
<p>It has no sense under narrative and storyline point of view, but it really works for my group.<br />
The whole level mechanism doesn&#8217;t make sense  anyway, so I just don&#8217;t mind.</p>
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		<title>By: kaeosdad</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2009/07/retrain-restat-recycle/comment-page-1/#comment-2227</link>
		<dc:creator>kaeosdad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 16:36:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=906#comment-2227</guid>
		<description>I surprisingly like the retrain during sleep idea, especially for playing with newbs. If everyone were to print out, or create power cards ahead of time with all their power options it shouldn&#039;t slow the game down if you gave everyone a set time limit to retrain their powers/feats during a snack break or something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I surprisingly like the retrain during sleep idea, especially for playing with newbs. If everyone were to print out, or create power cards ahead of time with all their power options it shouldn&#8217;t slow the game down if you gave everyone a set time limit to retrain their powers/feats during a snack break or something.</p>
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		<title>By: ethan</title>
		<link>http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2009/07/retrain-restat-recycle/comment-page-1/#comment-2226</link>
		<dc:creator>ethan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:25:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=906#comment-2226</guid>
		<description>@Maziade Essentially everyone in a class DOES have the same powers. There&#039;s nothing to keep the two rogues in your party from choosing the exact same powers at every level because they both like to play the same way.

Any differentiation between characters of the same class is purely based on a player&#039;s style of play or desire to be different.

And, while being stuck with a power might force a player to find new ways to use it, I find that those powers are often avoided in interest of the obvious &quot;best&quot; power for each level. If players know they are free to switch around powers, they&#039;re more likely to &quot;test drive&quot; things they may never have tried before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Maziade Essentially everyone in a class DOES have the same powers. There&#8217;s nothing to keep the two rogues in your party from choosing the exact same powers at every level because they both like to play the same way.</p>
<p>Any differentiation between characters of the same class is purely based on a player&#8217;s style of play or desire to be different.</p>
<p>And, while being stuck with a power might force a player to find new ways to use it, I find that those powers are often avoided in interest of the obvious &#8220;best&#8221; power for each level. If players know they are free to switch around powers, they&#8217;re more likely to &#8220;test drive&#8221; things they may never have tried before.</p>
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