Comments on: 4th edition and the case of the hideously long combat. http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2008/09/4th-edition-and-the-case-of-the-hideously-long-combat/ Inspired 4e Design Sun, 21 Mar 2010 03:14:38 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: admin http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2008/09/4th-edition-and-the-case-of-the-hideously-long-combat/comment-page-1/#comment-663 admin Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:46:07 +0000 http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=85#comment-663 @rekres, maybe. I've also had 3-4 combat sessions in the course of 3 hours. Generally, I've been fine with the pace of combat. While I have taken into the account "feet-dragging", sometimes encounters do take too long. What we're doing here is discussing various reasons why it can be taking too long and remedies for it. As for halving the XP, I don't think I'd be doing that. I understand how the game is "statted up". The idea first came from Wizards R&D though, who didn't suggest halving the XP. I think I'll go with the experts on that one. Thanks for your comments! @rekres, maybe. I’ve also had 3-4 combat sessions in the course of 3 hours. Generally, I’ve been fine with the pace of combat. While I have taken into the account “feet-dragging”, sometimes encounters do take too long. What we’re doing here is discussing various reasons why it can be taking too long and remedies for it.
As for halving the XP, I don’t think I’d be doing that. I understand how the game is “statted up”. The idea first came from Wizards R&D though, who didn’t suggest halving the XP. I think I’ll go with the experts on that one.

Thanks for your comments!

]]> By: rekres http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2008/09/4th-edition-and-the-case-of-the-hideously-long-combat/comment-page-1/#comment-662 rekres Mon, 15 Sep 2008 07:34:24 +0000 http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=85#comment-662 "So…show of hands…how many people have had a 4e combat last the entire session, dragging on and on and on?" What? Last session (4 hours, minus 10-15 min break in middle) I managed 3 combat encounters. Your players are just dragging their feet. "The first idea I came across slapped me pretty hard in the face (thanks Propagandroid!): halve the hit points of the monsters. " You do that then you really need to HALVE the XP as well. Monsters are statted up for a particular level, you go chopping them up then they shouldn't be worth as much. “So…show of hands…how many people have had a 4e combat last the entire session, dragging on and on and on?”

What? Last session (4 hours, minus 10-15 min break in middle) I managed 3 combat encounters. Your players are just dragging their feet.

“The first idea I came across slapped me pretty hard in the face (thanks Propagandroid!): halve the hit points of the monsters. ”

You do that then you really need to HALVE the XP as well. Monsters are statted up for a particular level, you go chopping them up then they shouldn’t be worth as much.

]]> By: admin http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2008/09/4th-edition-and-the-case-of-the-hideously-long-combat/comment-page-1/#comment-660 admin Sun, 14 Sep 2008 23:24:41 +0000 http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=85#comment-660 Hey guys! Been away for a little bit. So, first things first. My recent 4e adventure went just fine --the last monsters where solos, and in a party with two strikers, even full HP solos don't last more than a few turns. I'll have to wait till another session or so before I can really say what effect cutting hps and more judicious use of minions will do for me. @leandropug --thanks, and welcome to At-Will! I like some of your suggestions, especially about getting the play space organized. One thing I still have to do is really enforce everyone getting their bonuses in easy to access form on their character sheet, or better yet, on some sort of form that they have all current bonuses on, so they do minimal additions each combat. @pointyman - minions are the lifeblood of most 4e encounters is what I'm seeing. From what I'm finding, not using minions requires a pretty damn good reason. @ken --either monster hp needs to be scaled back, or PC power needs scaling up. I have noticed that players working together do some massive damage and get through encounters very easily. Once the ranger and warlock started double-teaming enemies, there was not a lot that could stand against them for more than a few rounds. Hey guys! Been away for a little bit. So, first things first. My recent 4e adventure went just fine –the last monsters where solos, and in a party with two strikers, even full HP solos don’t last more than a few turns.

I’ll have to wait till another session or so before I can really say what effect cutting hps and more judicious use of minions will do for me.

@leandropug –thanks, and welcome to At-Will! I like some of your suggestions, especially about getting the play space organized. One thing I still have to do is really enforce everyone getting their bonuses in easy to access form on their character sheet, or better yet, on some sort of form that they have all current bonuses on, so they do minimal additions each combat.

@pointyman – minions are the lifeblood of most 4e encounters is what I’m seeing. From what I’m finding, not using minions requires a pretty damn good reason.

@ken –either monster hp needs to be scaled back, or PC power needs scaling up. I have noticed that players working together do some massive damage and get through encounters very easily. Once the ranger and warlock started double-teaming enemies, there was not a lot that could stand against them for more than a few rounds.

]]> By: Ken Newquist http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2008/09/4th-edition-and-the-case-of-the-hideously-long-combat/comment-page-1/#comment-659 Ken Newquist Sun, 14 Sep 2008 22:59:01 +0000 http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=85#comment-659 We had a pretty decent party split -- fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric, warlock -- so I don't think it's necessarily a question of party build, though that can play a part. In our combats, one problem we did see on the player side was people not paying enough attention to their own abilities. For example, the fighter wasn't using her mark ability nearly enough, which mean less opportunity attacks when shifty opponents moved around the board, and less impetus for monsters to be drawn into the death spiral surrounding the warrior. Teamwork also has a huge impact on combat; our combats went much worse (for the PCs) when the party wasn't working together as a team (in other words, trying to take a 3E approach to a 4E game). In 4E, a lack of team work means you aren't getting the bonuses (either from combat advantage or someone else's powers) that you need to get your own powers to go off effectively. Once the party started pulling together, things went better for them. That said, I think monsters in 4E are *still* big sacks of hit points that could use some scaling back. We had a pretty decent party split — fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric, warlock — so I don’t think it’s necessarily a question of party build, though that can play a part.

In our combats, one problem we did see on the player side was people not paying enough attention to their own abilities. For example, the fighter wasn’t using her mark ability nearly enough, which mean less opportunity attacks when shifty opponents moved around the board, and less impetus for monsters to be drawn into the death spiral surrounding the warrior.

Teamwork also has a huge impact on combat; our combats went much worse (for the PCs) when the party wasn’t working together as a team (in other words, trying to take a 3E approach to a 4E game). In 4E, a lack of team work means you aren’t getting the bonuses (either from combat advantage or someone else’s powers) that you need to get your own powers to go off effectively.

Once the party started pulling together, things went better for them.

That said, I think monsters in 4E are *still* big sacks of hit points that could use some scaling back.

]]> By: Some Miscellaneous D&D News « Geek Related http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2008/09/4th-edition-and-the-case-of-the-hideously-long-combat/comment-page-1/#comment-657 Some Miscellaneous D&D News « Geek Related Sun, 14 Sep 2008 15:25:23 +0000 http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=85#comment-657 [...] 3.  More and more people are relating their 4e experiences, and learning that, as I said, the new rules are not indeed streamlined, but take even longer to run a combat. [...] [...] 3.  More and more people are relating their 4e experiences, and learning that, as I said, the new rules are not indeed streamlined, but take even longer to run a combat. [...]

]]> By: Narration in Combat | A Butterfly Dreaming http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2008/09/4th-edition-and-the-case-of-the-hideously-long-combat/comment-page-1/#comment-646 Narration in Combat | A Butterfly Dreaming Fri, 12 Sep 2008 17:56:34 +0000 http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=85#comment-646 [...] building on an inspirational post over at At Will, advocates allowing characters to describe the death of a minion when they hit (and therefore kill) [...] [...] building on an inspirational post over at At Will, advocates allowing characters to describe the death of a minion when they hit (and therefore kill) [...]

]]> By: leandropug http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2008/09/4th-edition-and-the-case-of-the-hideously-long-combat/comment-page-1/#comment-645 leandropug Fri, 12 Sep 2008 13:00:27 +0000 http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=85#comment-645 I have this problem the last session ( it was the 7th session ), but i see the problem ( at least in my game ) - Two more players enter, players who don´t know the rules (and dont know english...im brazilian by the way ) - People dont get organized like they was, and dont use power cards, waht make them "remember" the powers...no way - And at least, they dont think ahed of time, and get mess up in the combat when get to theyrs turn. My solutions were: - Give then 5s to deceide what to do or lost their turn - Kill monster when they are low hp ou useless - Make mosnters that last to run if can ( or just kill then ) But i like to see more opinions here! Great Post bt the way I have this problem the last session ( it was the 7th session ), but i see the problem ( at least in my game )

- Two more players enter, players who don´t know the rules (and dont know english…im brazilian by the way )

- People dont get organized like they was, and dont use power cards, waht make them “remember” the powers…no way

- And at least, they dont think ahed of time, and get mess up in the combat when get to theyrs turn.

My solutions were:
- Give then 5s to deceide what to do or lost their turn
- Kill monster when they are low hp ou useless
- Make mosnters that last to run if can ( or just kill then )

But i like to see more opinions here!

Great Post bt the way

]]> By: Pointyman2000 http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2008/09/4th-edition-and-the-case-of-the-hideously-long-combat/comment-page-1/#comment-643 Pointyman2000 Fri, 12 Sep 2008 02:20:22 +0000 http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=85#comment-643 Oddly enough, I've encountered this kind of situation before when dealing with one half of my group. I suspect it's because I wasn't using any minions on that team given that they had no controller. In hindsight, my encounter design might have been a mistake. In removing the minions, everything was now a credible threat that was meant to stick around. Meaning that they took a lot longer to drop, extending combat further. The earlier comments about more interesting terrain should be worth applying, a stale battleground is a boring battleground. Oddly enough, I’ve encountered this kind of situation before when dealing with one half of my group. I suspect it’s because I wasn’t using any minions on that team given that they had no controller.

In hindsight, my encounter design might have been a mistake. In removing the minions, everything was now a credible threat that was meant to stick around. Meaning that they took a lot longer to drop, extending combat further.

The earlier comments about more interesting terrain should be worth applying, a stale battleground is a boring battleground.

]]> By: admin http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2008/09/4th-edition-and-the-case-of-the-hideously-long-combat/comment-page-1/#comment-642 admin Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:16:56 +0000 http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=85#comment-642 @Brent - indeed, sometimes a session-length combat is just the thing, but only when it's planned. I'm hoping to have one of those coming up, featuring a dragonborn mummy raised and controlled by sentient, necromancer...tree. Oh, I'm going to love that encounter. @Donny 25% ? Hmmm, I'll have to keep that in mind. Overall, I really like 4e. But I expect to this sort of troubleshooting in any game, really. One of the great things about 4e though is how easy it makes the troubleshooting with its transparency and basic design. @Patriarch917 -thanks for the link! I've dropped a comment discussing some further thing I do as well. @Brent – indeed, sometimes a session-length combat is just the thing, but only when it’s planned. I’m hoping to have one of those coming up, featuring a dragonborn mummy raised and controlled by sentient, necromancer…tree. Oh, I’m going to love that encounter.

@Donny 25% ? Hmmm, I’ll have to keep that in mind. Overall, I really like 4e. But I expect to this sort of troubleshooting in any game, really. One of the great things about 4e though is how easy it makes the troubleshooting with its transparency and basic design.

@Patriarch917 -thanks for the link! I’ve dropped a comment discussing some further thing I do as well.

]]> By: Patriarch917 http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2008/09/4th-edition-and-the-case-of-the-hideously-long-combat/comment-page-1/#comment-641 Patriarch917 Thu, 11 Sep 2008 20:12:11 +0000 http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/?p=85#comment-641 You mentioned handing control of minion deaths over to the PCs, which sounds like a good idea. I've responded to that part of your post <a href="http://lolforinitiative.blogspot.com/2008/09/killing-minions-with-style.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. You mentioned handing control of minion deaths over to the PCs, which sounds like a good idea. I’ve responded to that part of your post here.

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